Episode #007: What Is Your Customer NOT Telling You? with Barb Nagle
In This Episode of The Buyer’s Mind with Jeff Shore:
Barb Nagle, President of Marketscape Research & Consulting, talks about how sales people transform themselves into researchers when they ask the right questions. Remember it’s about defining the problem for your customer FIRST before you can offer the right solution.
Topics we’re going to cover on today’s podcast:
- [3:11] Quote of the Day
- [6:00] Sales Tip of the Day
- [11:05] Research? Can’t We Get Things Done – Like “Mad Men”
- [12:43] Research Changes The Way A Company Does Business
- [15:08] How Do You Get Data from Emotional Consumers
- [18:53] Sales People are Researching Every Day
- [23:58] How Do You Approach Research?
- [28:00] Motivational Summary
More about our guest Barb Nagle Statler:
Barbara Nagle Statler is the President of Marketscape Research & Consulting which she founded in 1987 on the heels of a successful career in advertising. A native midwesterner, she completed undergraduate and graduate studies at the University of Nebraska. She and her talented staff provide counsel to clients across a broad range of industries, from Fortune 100 companies to emerging new businesses. A specialist in consumer research techniques, Nagle has personally conducted countless focus groups and in-depth interviews and has creatively adapted a variety of qualitative and quantitative research to ensure accurate, actionable information.
Links from today’s podcast:
Jeff: Ever wonder what your customer is not telling you? Our guest today is a master of figuring that stuff out. Stay tuned.
Announcer: Welcome to “The Buyer’s Mind” where we take a closer look deep inside your customer’s decision-making mechanism to reverse engineer the perfect sales presentation. Now, please welcome your host, Jeff Shore.
Jeff: Well, welcome everyone to another episode of “The Buyer’s Mind” where we investigate exactly what’s going on in the brains of our prospects who are considering a purchase decision. It’s about knowing the customers so well that the sale begins to roll out right in front of you. And today we’re going to look at some very interesting market research and the process by which we study our customers. I’m your host Jeff Shore. You can read the full bio in the show notes. You can also visit jeffshore.com. I’d love it if you signed up for our weekly, Saturday morning newsletter, a little free inspiration, motivation, and instruction to start your weekend off right.
Welcome to also, to the show producer, Mr. Paul Murphy. Murph, how are you today?
Paul: I’m doing really great.
Jeff: All right. I’m gonna put you on the spot here Murph. Murph, say something profound.
Paul: Something profound. Okay, no I don’t have anything profound. I’m not a profound kind of a guy but I knew you were gonna ask this so I looked up a quote from somebody who is profound, Albert Einstein. And he wrote, “Everybody is a genius but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing it is stupid.”
Jeff: Wow, that is deep. That is…it is a very clever quote by the way. What made you pick that quote there, Murph?
Paul: You know, just trying to find my way around these days in the world. Trying to figure out who I am made me realize that I’ve got stuff to offer and it just is a matter of knowing who I am.
Jeff: You know, I was reading Sir Ken Robinson’s book, “The Element” and he really focuses in on education and particularly what’s happening in the public education system. And he asked a fascinating question that’s absolutely in line with this quote right here. That, he looks at, he says, “You know, we always look at kids, we give them a test and we try to judge how smart they are.” And he says, “That’s the wrong question.” It’s not, “How smart are you?” It’s, “How are you smart?” That there are different types of intelligence, there are different types of abilities. When we take our different talents and abilities and stack them together, we are amazingly smart and I think that that speaks to what you’re talking about here, Murph. It’s that you got to be in your right place in life in order to really feel like I’m contributing at the highest level possible, right?
Jeff: Yeah, very, very cool, love that. So there it is, “If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing it is stupid.” That is great. Thanks for sharing that, Murph. And before I forget to mention it, stay with us because we have an ongoing contest that we’ll be talking about the end of today show. Some really, really great prizes, you’re gonna wanna stick around for that. But here’s our quote of the day. This is from Zora Neale Hurston and since we’re on a theme of research in this podcast and we’ll get deeper into that here in just a little bit, listen to this, “Research is formalized curiosity, it is poking and prying with a purpose.” That’s Zora Neale Hurston saying, “Research is formalized curiosity, it is poking and prying with a purpose.”
So much of what we do in business is to follow our gut. I get that, I understand that but there is so much opportunity to ensure better results if we flex that curiosity muscle. And you’re gonna hear that today from our guest. It’s not just about doing good research, it’s about being insanely curious. For sales people, I happen to believe that insane curiosity is the most underrated and underappreciated skill set. Great sales people are deeply curious, they wanna know all about our customer’s motivation. They wanna know all about the customer’s dissatisfaction, their future promise, their anticipated memories, all the things that we talk about at Shore Consulting.
Great salespeople are not simply about, “Let me show you how great my product is,” which is another way of saying, “Open wide while I jam this down your throat, and you can describe the taste to me.” No, great sales people are deeply curious, they have to know what’s going on in the mind of the customer. And if you’re deeply curious about what’s going on in your customer’s brain, you’re definitely gonna wanna stick around for today’s interview.
We want to let you know that this podcast is brought to you in part by our good friends at Home Street Bank. Not just our show sponsor, they are my lender of choice. I used Home Street to my last home purchase, they were fantastic, an extremely smooth transaction. Everybody that I’ve ever met at Home Street has been dependable and professional, really great people but also great rates and great service. If you are a real estate professional, you’re just not gonna find anybody better to help you take good care of your clients. Banking, home loans, credit lines, whatever you need, go to homestreetbank.com to learn more. That’s homestreetbank.com.
Now, coming up in just a few minutes, an interview with Barb Nagle, founder of Marketscape Research and a really, really interesting individual. Barb does some amazing work for her clients and we’re going to uncover that which our customers are often not telling us. We’re gonna look at the emotions of a purchase, we’re gonna look at confirmation bias, and how often a customer just doesn’t really know what he or she wants. It’s a fascinating conversation with a really, really sharp individual.
Now, before we get there, let me give you our tip of the day. We always give you that sales tip of the day. Today is to go three whys down. This is something I’ve been talking about for years, it’s a core topic of our curriculum at Shore Consulting, the idea of going three whys down: why, why, why. And the reason that we do that is because oftentimes when we’re trying to determine our customer’s motivation, when we’re trying to determine why they do what they do, why they feel what they feel, why they think what they think, it oftentimes does not come to us on the surface. We have to go deeper. I think that sales professionals can make a living off of the phrase, “Tell me more about that.”
You want to think like a counselor. If you just walked into a psychotherapist’s office, into a counselor’s office and you said, “Well, here’s my problem. I’m having some depression issues, and also some insecurity, and I’m pretty sure that it’s tied to my relationship with my father dating back to my early years along with some sibling issues that I had, how they devastated me because I was dealing with some self-confidence issues stemming to an issue with a dog in the third grade.” Okay, that would be highly unusual behavior. What are you gonna say? “So, what seems to be the issue?” “I’m down.” When you’re looking at a counselor, they need to go deeper in order to understand you. When you’re talking to a counselor, they need to go deeper in order to understand you. Are you a sales counselor? Then you’re gonna need to go deeper in order to understand your customers. I think you can make a living off of the phrase, “Tell me more about that.”
And so my tip for you is the next time that you want to short circuit a customer’s comments so that you can start demonstrating how cool your product is, you’ve gotta train yourself to say, “Huh, that’s interesting, tell me more. Why is that the case? How do you feel about that? How did that change things for you? How did you arrive at that conclusion?” All of these are variations of “Tell me more.” You can make a living off of the phrase, “Tell me more.” Go to work to get three whys down.
And before we get to our interview, let me tell you about an opportunity for real estate sales professionals. I want to invite you to join us for the 2017 Jeff Shore Sales Leadership Summit and Expo. This is to help you become a better leader for your team, to grow your business in ways you never thought possible, and to take your career to the next level. This is the premier gathering for real estate executives, for real estate sales executives. Although I have to tell you, we’ve had people from all different industries and they’ve always gotten so much out of this but the target lessons are for real estate executives. And you’re gonna learn from the best of the best about what it takes to make you a better leader, manager, and coach, more insights, more strategies, and more “ah-ha” moments than ever before.
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All right. Well, I’m thrilled to have my friend Barb Nagle. Barb Nagle Sattler, just a wide range in experience of working in the consumer market research, strategy planning. She founded Marketscape Research and Consulting to try and get a better sense of feedback from clients. And customers call Barb when they really wanna know what their customer is thinking. So, she founded of Marketscape back in 1987 on the heels of a successful career in advertising. A native Midwesterner, she completed undergraduate and graduate studies at the University of Nebraska but now makes her home in California. Barb, welcome to “The Buyer’s Mind.”
Barb: Thanks, Jeff, nice to be here.
Jeff: So I got to tell you, you are a researcher and for so many of us when we think the word “research,” we think research paper which sounds like hard work, and crunching numbers, and everything else. Somehow, you got the research bug and it sort of stuck with you.
Barb: That’s true. As you mentioned, I came out of a career in advertising. And when you work in advertising, especially with large companies, you see good decision makers and not so good decision makers, and sometimes it seemed to me like the common denominator was, “What kind of information were they basing their choices on?” So, it launched me into what I think I was made to do, which was ask questions. That’s how I ended up in research.
Jeff: You know, it’s interesting because when you think about the advertising world, we have this picture in our mind, sort of going back to “Mad Men,” from whatever. But you’ve got a bunch of executives and they’re sitting in the room, and they’re brainstorming topics, and they’ve got storyboards on the wall, and they’re throwing pencils at the ceiling to try and get them to stick while they brainstorm. And there’s this constant refrain of I think, I think, I think, I think we should do this, I think we should do that. And my guess is that for you, first of all, that’s not really the world of advertising, and secondly the words, “I think” probably drive you a little crazy. Is that reading too much into it?
Barb: Oh no, I think that’s so apt. You know, there is Bill Bernbach who is a very famous ad guy back in the ’60s, a creative guy by the way. And he said, “Give me the freedom of a tight, creative strategy.” And I think by that he meant that “The better you define the problem, the more creative you can be with the solution.” So I think that’s kind of a big driver for research and it’s role in any kind of sales and marketing.
Jeff: And that’s where the curiosity comes in, to really need to know the consumer, the customer on a deeper level. Because otherwise, all you’re left with is the gut which could be pretty deceiving.
Barb: That’s right. Very few of us are our own customer, that’s right.
Jeff: Yeah, yeah. So customers call you, your clients call you when they just simply can’t figure something out about their own customer base, is that a fair statement?
Barb: Yeah, or if they just have an itch that needs to be scratched. You know, sometimes we’re not always 100% confident that we know the minds of a customer, or can expect or can anticipate their response to things. So that’s when research can come into play.
Jeff: Sure. Give us an example of a research project that you did that led to a direct change in the way that a company did business.
Barb: One of my favorite examples, I think, comes in financial services if you can imagine. People who sell loans and loan products, and things like that where sometimes they find that their consumers were exhibiting really erratic or irrational behavior, and it’s research that helped the financial institution to understand some of the underlying motivation for consumers and that in turn enabled them, the company, to tailor their…not only their products but also their sales approaches to match what were the consumers underlying value systems. And we don’t often look deep enough, look under the covers to really understand what’s really driving someone in a purchase decision. But if we understand that well my goodness, we can make all kinds of adjustments to make it happy for everybody.
Jeff: You know, one of the things that I find interesting of late is over the last several years, I wrote an article about this for “Success” magazine. You take an otherwise old school, old money, stodgy industry like insurance and what do you get these days? You’ve got the ever cheerful flow, you’ve got the mayhem guy from Allstate, you know you’ve got these really, really funny commercials out there but they’re all kind of speaking to the idea of, “Have you ever thought that this could go wrong to you?” And they present it in a funny way but it’s kind of interesting because nobody really wants to think about insurance. But when we look at it from the perspective of, “Oh, you know what, that would be bad if that happened.” It’s kind of interesting to kind of see how that works when you’re dealing with an emotion-based consumer.
Barb: Yeah well, and good on those companies for discovering kind of where the touchstone were for consumers that they could appeal to. Exactly where research comes in.
Jeff: Mm-hmm, yeah. Well, we see…now let’s talk about this from the psychological aspect because we know that making a purchase decision is a psychologically emotional endeavor, right? We’ve gotta have the…the logic is there to check all the boxes but then ultimately, we’re gonna make the decision from the gut and one of the things that we have learned even on this podcast with a lot of our very wonky academic friends is that we often don’t understand the very way that we go about making decisions. So the question is, “How do you get objective, logical data for your clients from a customer that is essentially emotion-based in their decision-making process?
Barb: Well, isn’t every decision we make? If we trace it back far enough, it all comes back to emotions. Even if you tell me that you prefer black cars to silver cars, if we dig deep enough, we can find out what’s driving you for that black car decision. So, even the most logical of thoughts are triggered by some kind of emotional satisfaction, and so research’s real powerful role is in tying those two together.
Jeff: So what do you do when a customer doesn’t know what they don’t know, right? So there is the…you look at Steve Jobs who didn’t do a lot of consumer research because he felt like his customers don’t even know what’s available to them out there or even going back to Henry Ford who said, “If I asked people what they wanted, they would have told me they wanted a faster horse.” So, what do you do with that? When a customer doesn’t even know what they don’t know, how do you deal with that push and pull as a researcher?
Barb: I think that’s where, I mean, that’s really research’s role is not to define the solution but to define the problem. Use your Henry Ford example, people’s real goal in that was to get someplace faster. And that doesn’t mean necessarily, that they can define what that means any more than it defines for us today in contemporary settings. We don’t know the solutions to the problems we have but we’re pretty good at defining the problems when the right questions are asked.
Jeff: When I think about your role as a researcher, I think that there is a lot of crossover to an influenced practitioner like a sales person who has to approach a conversation working with a customer with kind of an open mind and a clean slate. But we all have to deal with the psychological phenomenon referred to as the “confirmation bias” suggesting that we look for evidence to support that which we already believe. And I’ve seen my clients fall into that trap on a regular basis. Usually happens when they spend too much time looking at anecdotal evidence that I get it supports what they already believe. How do you guard against that? What do you do to approach a research project and make sure that you’re not bringing in your own biases, your own opinions, your own leanings into that conversation?
Barb: That is the core of what we do. We’re paid for our objectivity and that we’re paid to report reality, however painful or disturbing it might be. And I guess take that risk, that we’re the messenger that might get shot sometimes. It’s tough sometimes to bring in news that, “Gosh, company, this new product concept may not fly,” or “Gosh, all this money they invested might be headed off in a wrong direction.” But it’s better to know that in advance. And I think in the end always, that’s our job is to kind of report truth. We are at an advantage as a consultant because we don’t have that vested interest in the outcome. We do know obviously, we want our clients to be successful. We want that success to be built on truth, not on illusion.
Jeff: Do you see though that from time to time that you’ll get a client who’s going to hire you, they’re going to pay you good money to do good work, and then look at it at the end of the day they’re gonna go, “Nah, I disagree, I want to do it my way.”
Barb: We have watched them at their situation but then, like I said, that’s part of what…I think that’s what helps us learn…you know, research is one of those things that is only honestly worth paying for when someone has a valid need. If they don’t really have the need, we would discourage them from…if they’re really convinced of the outcomes, they really don’t need to pay us to find something out.
Jeff: Can companies or even individual salespeople do their own research?
Barb: I think a good salesperson is probably doing research every day. If they’re asking questions, if they’re really probing for their consumers’ needs, that is in essence what research is. The challenge is, I know for a good salesperson is to try to maintain that objectivity during the process.
Jeff: So, yes. So, I assume that that would be your key advice is if you really want to know, if you’re really curious to know your customer, you have to go in with that open mind, that blank slate. And I think one of the big problems for salespeople is that they hear one piece of information, it sort of locks into their brain and then they wanna run with that, and they start painting too full of a picture based on a small piece of information. Is that a problem in the research world as well?
Barb: Yes, you know, we try to follow this tenet we call UPA, unconditional positive acceptance, meaning trying to listen and accept exactly what somebody is saying to the extent that we don’t understand or agree with they continue to just ask questions, “Why is that? Tell me more.” And I think that same technique applies very beautifully in the sales arena where a good salesperson will try to stay objective for as long as possible in the questioning process.
Jeff: Mm-hmm, yeah. This is one thing that we teach at Shore Consulting all the time, that very phrase, “Tell me more,” and anytime you want to jump to a solution, back it off, slow it down, and just tell me more will give you so much. And I just have to tell you the phrase, “unconditional positive acceptance,” that will be a Jeff Shore original by next Thursday, just want to let you know that.
Barb: I’m glad. Spread the news, it’s good for all of us.
Jeff: There you go, there you go.
Barb: In every relationship.
Jeff: No, I will make sure that there’s a Barb Nagle at the end of that there to make sure that everybody understands. But that’s really great, I mean, just the concept of unconditional positive acceptance. I mean, I’m just looking at it and just saying relationally, it would be a better planet if more people would take on that approach. And so that leads me to the next question, where goes agenda, because if I’m a sales person and I’m approaching, as you said, a good sales conversation is really about research but my agenda could very easily get in the way of research and I’m sure you see that with your clients as well.
Barb: Yeah, you know it’s…obviously, we go in with…a client generally gives us a solution to test or at least they have hypotheses about what’s going to work, same way a sales process person has something they want to accomplish. Our job is to explore all the whys underneath that. And if we can understand the why, understand the problems, then we’ll see if there’s a place for that solution to fit. Then sometimes it takes a lot of, what, almost like triangulation to try to sort that out. Sometimes you have to ask questions of the research population that are unrelated to the topic to try to come back around to what the real needs are. So, I think that happens in a good sale…I’m sure as you teach, it’s happened in a good sales conversation as well.
Jeff: Yeah, yeah. How often do you find yourself talking to a customer and saying, “Wow, this person is ready to buy, like right now.”
Barb: You know, almost…I would say in almost every assignment that we find there’s something that’s a springboard to the sale. It’s always a possibility. So sometimes it takes a little extra digging to get to it but often consumers can be much more readied when they hear themselves explain their why. But I think, I suppose in a good sales conversation and you would know best if a sales person can engage to get to that why question when the consumer can actually put that forth then you’ve got the solution right there on a platter for them.
Jeff: Love it. Yeah, I just love that. That’s such a great concept. Let me ask you, is there any occupational hazard that you face as a researcher? For me, as somebody who coaches and leads influence practitioners, I’m always studying sales people whether I want to or not, and to some extent marketers whether I want to or not. Do you do the same thing? Do you look and you go, “Wow, a little bit of research here would have gone a long way to having solved this problem that this company may not even know they have.”
Barb: Absolutely. I mean, in daily life I think we all see opportunities where both research and salesmanship could help build better relationships, build better products, answer a lot of the ills that we all have to address on a daily basis. I think it’s that whole listening skill that is what takes the practice and the discipline.
Jeff: As we head into the wrap-up, just to ask you, just on a side note, on a personal note. Generally, when we think of researchers, you know, the image in our brain is a laboratory, a lab coat, and a clipboard, and looking at…and, of course, that’s scientific. But then when we look at it from even consumer research, we still look at it as people who are gonna be very technical, very wonky, maybe even lacking a little personality. But you are just an amazingly positive person, your reputation is stellar. Is that something that you work at? Is that something that you have your rituals to try or you’re just naturally a positive person? How do you approach life that way?
Barb: I think God made me to be a researcher. I feel like he opened a door to say, “Yeah, this is the right profession for you,” and I’m just so blessed to be able to carry other people’s words forward. Nothing’s more compelling than the stories that consumers tell us, and our job is simply to pass those along. So, if there’s a brightness and an inspiration, I think it comes from just listening to real people tell their stories and helping those to be the inspiration for others.
Jeff: But for you, it goes along with the idea that you are where you are supposed to be and that can’t help but promote a positive attitude, right?
Barb: Yeah. Well, it’s a very secure foundation. Yeah.
Jeff: Yeah, yeah. No, I’m right with you, I’m right with you, very cool. Any last advice for sales marketing influence practitioners based on on your history and your experience?
Barb: I’m just so grateful that you bring these concepts to the fore, Jeff, because like I said, I think a great salesperson is a great researcher inherently and to keep on asking those questions and using that in the process can only make it a better benefit for everybody.
Jeff: Fantastic. That is Barb Nagel Statler, just a wonderful researcher. I have personally…we have a couple of common clients. I have seen the outcome of her work and the influence that it has but I think as you’ve even heard on this interview, just a really, really good human being. Barb, thanks so much for being on the show, really appreciate it.
Barb: Thanks, Jeff.
Jeff: Well Murph, I got to tell you, first things first. Barb has just a…you just get the sense that she’s the type of person you’d love to have a cup of coffee with.
Jeff: She’s just really good, positive energy coming out of her all the time and I do find it interesting that contrast you normally think of a researcher and you think of somebody that might be a little wonky, maybe a little bit light on their communication skills but she was fantastic. Anything jump out at you from the interview?
Murph: I thought the interesting aspect that she talked about was, “It’s important to define the problem, not the solution.”
Jeff: Yeah, yeah. That’s…so, I’m so glad she said this because this is something that we preach at Shore Consulting all the time that salespeople are so prepared to move forward to the solution and they’ve got this shiny object that they just can’t wait to share that they short circuit the definition of the problem. They may have part of the problem but they don’t go deep enough on the problem and just that whole “Tell me more” which of course, we just make a living off of that phrase was really great. I loved also when she said, “When people hear themselves state their why, it’s very powerful.” It’s one thing for the sales professional to understand why somebody is doing what they’re doing but when the customer hears themselves say it, that is where it really, really matters. That very cool. And then finally, my new favorite saying, “unconditional positive acceptance.” I’m gonna run with that one for a little while because it was really, really good stuff. I just…
Jeff: The UPA. We’re running with it folks. You’ll hear it ad nauseum as you’re moving forward, the UPA. Once again my thanks to Barb Nagle Statler, just a tremendous opportunity to have her on “The Buyer’s Mind.”
Well, hey, before we wrap it up, I wanna tell you…I wanna talk a little about sales professionals and the role that they play. Earlier in this podcast, I was talking about counselors, about how counselors work and what counselors do. And it’s interesting, if you’re a sales and marketing professional, I want you to focus in on that word “professional” for just a moment. What do we think about professional occupations, what do we think about? We think about attorneys, physicians, accountants. But why not sales and marketing professionals?
See, one of the things that we think about, when we think about our attorney, or a physician, or accountant, these are people that we hold in high regard, these are people who we trust, these are people who we open up to, and these are people who help us in times of need, right? That’s what they do. They have the opportunity to help us to do things that we can’t do. If I’m sick or injured, I would rather not just go on Web MD and figure it all out myself. If it’s serious, I need somebody who’s helped to get me through that process. I don’t do my own taxes, I don’t want to do my own taxes because there’s a professional out there who knows so much more than me.
You need to see yourself as that type of professional. Your customer needs a hero. If they could go through all of this on their own, they wouldn’t be talking to you in the first place. But what does a hero do? A hero swoops in when somebody is in distress, they evaluate the situation, they help solve the problem, and by the time they’re done with that person having a better life and a better future. That’s you, you are a hero. Go out there and be a hero for your customer.
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All right, there you go. That’s a wrap on our podcast, “The Buyer’s Mind.” I hope you enjoyed it. You can find everything you needed to know at jeffshore.com. But until then, go out there my friends and change someone’s world.